BMC would be my pick. Flick those wheels and have a bike around 7kg. Also has a lot of FSA, more weight savings. SRAM is different if you have never used it. That is a good price.
started off just looking for some parts for the spare SCOTT frame i have...you know how it goes... start looking for some parts end up buying something non related! With the wheels I have all three would end up under 8kg too which is a bonus.
What's with that. If it is a BMC, can you take it into a BMC dealer? I am pretty sure the likes of Cannondale you can, no matter where you purchased? A bike under 8kg is a big difference. For that matter a rider under 80kg would be nice as well.
None of them are fall over yourself great deals. The BMC is light but you'd be on the road at about 8.5-9kg anyway. although wheels and tires and saddle changed to sensible products would shave a further 600gm'ish. isn't rival = 105ish. Better off sourcing just a frame at <$1400 and building from there.
Giants are not even 20% off. Thnat's the starting discount for current stock sell out. I also wonder whether swapping the 105 parts helped increase margin when they discounted. Bottom line is I think your Scott is heaps better. Group set, wheels.
Nope, you can't have it. Love to agree but can't. They are both lighter/same as my SCOTT with its present configuration. If I put my wheels on the GIANT (either) they would drop 250grams again). Where they both beat my SCOTT is frame/fork weight. Can't overcome that easily. They both have good aggressive geometry too. Anyway, the point I was making is, they are the best two bikes I could find NEW for that money across all manufacturers. Plus, its hard for them to discount more because of the wholesale price. Which is why GIANT is now opening its own shops around Australia.
Saw the tcr composite in bike shop with Ultegra/105 calipers and the r1900 wheels (that lok good actually) @$2899. Didn't double check the frame but from your picture I thought they looked like Giants sloping compact which I always thought was less agressive.
If the bikes for you then STOP! spend $2000 on a frame upgrade and swap components over...simple.
OK. The TCR advanced team (if that's what it's still called) is a different carbon composite to the lower levels. They don't get into detail because if you're after a <$3000 bike this is more information than you need. George's formulae: <$1,500 road bike = you ride with the kids. keep the bike under 60km/hr. No rain. Tolerance is flat sealed roads...no mild bumps or pot holes as your 3kg wheels will buckle easily. Don't upgrade, buy a new bike. $2,000<$4,000 = I want a carbon or steel (al) frame. I shouldn't get speed wobbles going over 60km/hr down a hill and it is reasonable to spend money upgrading parts. $4k<$8k = I should consider the type of carbon, resin and finish. The better wheels and components will give less incremental improvement but it will be noticable. I am only a little off top gear and may have some parts that are. I should notice better power transfer in stiffness of frame, wheels and maybe components. My lateral flex - even with the help of a heavy foot - won't be significant. I don't have parts rusting when I ride in the wet. >$8k I have a specific technology in the size, variable thickness and method of blowing the carbon tubing. My resin is minimised but high quality and finished perfectly. My components maximise performance to weight (notice I didn't say they were the lightest). My moving parts are smoother than anything else I've had and I can afford to spend extra $'000 on negligible improvement in my own ability. If my bike doesn't look expensive I'm an idiot.
Summary, performance and weight aren't relevant for the $2k'ish market because you can't see them as clearly as the sticker on the side of the frame. Arguably, riding a brand that you think is superior (whatever that may be) can have a positive effect on your performance.
These views are subject to change and do not reflect the actions of their author. For updates on the world according to the mechanic visit backbytenthirty.blogspot.com
When you read the cycling mags and see the tests on the bikes, the cost of the bike doesn't reflect in amount of movement in the frame. In fact, if that was your single criteria you'd be riding a MOOTs or a BAUM. The problem with your theory is that if you placed Pinarello stickers on a GIANT the price would increase dramatically, and as with most bikes the performance increase relative to cost increase is poor. We are not talking about new design/technology either. The basic frame shape hasn't altered much. The material technology is common too all, and mostly built in Taiwan, often inside the same bloody factories. Anyone spending more than $4k at the level we are riding at is delusional or simply wants something specific which bears no relation to their talent. The only thing that has a positive effect on your performance is training. A BMC with 105 or a GIANT with 105 and 3 grand cheaper is going to perform just as well.
Its going to be interesting to see how GIANT goes opening GIANT stores instead of using dealers.
I enjoyed the Mechanics formulae. Yes Spanglish, I can justify that anyone spending more then $4k at our level is delusional. I have spent more then that and yes it bears no relationship to my talent. But, have you ridden one of these $8k + bikes? Yes they all have similar geometry but they are poles apart! Go and try one, then re post. Also, get hold of some tubulars for the magic carpet ride. Yes we may all be influenced by branding, but these brands have a stigma for a reason.
I, like you work hard so why not have some nice things?
I have stopped working hard, I'm blogging! You've gone off the subject. The subject is looking at the quality and value of an unpopular but never-the-less well built bike at $2.2k or less against other brands with the same spec. If you going up the price you can again buy a TCR A SL RABOBANK for $5.5k. Face up, if two bikes used by PRO's have the same running gear but are 2/3k apart or more in price, what are you (Mr Recreational Cyclist) getting out of it other than a shafting? You have to understand, I am not pro GIANT nor do I have one, but paying an Italian 3 grand more to paint my Taiwanese frame for me is down right fucking dumb.
OOOhhh, I know. Designed by a very well respected frame designer. The guy at work has a friend that has one and says its as good as anything he has ridden... its just the name isn't it. Also, i know for a fact Malvern Star sold all their stock this year. I have ridden a Look KG481 and a Giant Defy Advanced 0. The Look had Campag on it, was no better/worse than Shimano, is better looking but again you pay too much more for it. The Giant was very light, Sleepyhead uses one, rode very well BUT at over 5k new was it 4 times better than my Scott. NO. Better, different, lets face it, less weight (you/the bike) its a no brainer. All these bikes are stiff.
By the way - Pinarello frame movement BB 0.35/ST 0.43, Koga BB 0.38/ST 0.28 $16,000 v $3,800.
Its marketing and sales over common sense. People buy into it like religion. Once your suckered in you have to believe or admit you were a fool.
As for geometry, i overlaid some pics last week, they were all the same. So the frame comes down to build/strength areas and type of manufacturing. But its hardly a secret, they are all building the same stuff using the same materials, often in the same factory.
So, in conclusion: if you buy on spec you get the best deal and ignore the name, if you buy because you want something else just say so and don't bleat about delusional attributes you read in a mag.
Let me tell you, I have used Des's old OCR3 all 300 dollars worth, sometimes no gears wreck on the SKCC ride, and I have done the same ride on the steel 10 kilo LeMond too. Which is roughly the quality of the bike he used when he won the Tour!
And here is another bike he raced a tour on: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110648527497&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Had a quick look. Didn't see red anywhere? They are ligther still. If your looking at rotating mass. Look wheels then at your shoes/pedals. A low end heavy bike with lighter wheels would be better then a higher end with good componetry and heavy wheels.
I see it now.. the new CERVELO TORPEDO. In fact, I think i am right in saying the greatest obstacle to overcome in cycling is the aerodynamics of the rider.
SRAM RED is the bottom table, try not to get on my nerves!
6kg for the Scott? Very hard to get a bike under 6kg unless the wheels are under 1kg. You need to look at Bars & Tape Stem Saddle and Post Pedals are handy Tires and Tubes Cables for Shifters and Brakes
Ok in that case yes. This is a wish list? And expensive I thought when you said Scott frame you meant your exisitng frame. You also mentioned Soul wheels? Scott Plasma frame. Thought thats a time trial bike? Once again we are talking two different things. We got there in the end.
back a step CR1 Team Issue hows that? I'll take the SCOTT.
Money is no object. Here you go, I am going to put the cash on the dash first, I give us 3-5 years tops before we are a global basket case. You have China now consuming as the world's 2nd largest economy in direct competition with the West for all resources. India just behind. You have a growing population of young poor people in OPEC countries. The latest in a long line of people trying to warn us but getting ignored: www.theage.com.au/business/arab-countries-must-ring-in-changes--and-quickly-20110217-1ay90.html
SPEND SPEND SPEND for tomorrow it will be worthless!
Have a read. It has been Tuned all over the place. The term "tuned" means these strange little people pull the covers off things like shifters and drill hiles in them, they replace bolts and pulleys with titanium parts etc. I am not sure they would actually want to ride these bikes. Great going up hill but down!!?
Guys for what its worth, picked up my new 2 wheeled thing last week and the thing is like riding a weightless rubber band between the legs? In summary having come from 25 years riding Campag and Euro/USA Frames now a true convert to Sram Red on an Asian Carbon thing, ohh at least the bits that licks and contacts the bitumen is still Euro! PS> Have you guys read my email/blog under BBTT Rides regarding this Sunday's Sass Ride?
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?SKU=68909&COLOR=Red&SIZE=56cm&PAGE=BIKE_CALC&size_select=25203&color_select=68909&Submit2=Continue
ReplyDeletehttp://www.bikeexchange.com.au/bikes/show/100169027-giant-tcr-advanced-2
http://www.bikeexchange.com.au/bikes/show/100260797-giant-tcr-composite-1
BMC would be my pick. Flick those wheels and have a bike around 7kg.
ReplyDeleteAlso has a lot of FSA, more weight savings.
SRAM is different if you have never used it.
That is a good price.
Yep - wheels replaced with DuraAce would be the go
ReplyDeleteYou won lotto or something?
ReplyDeleteWhy the sudden search for "porn"
biggest issue is warranty with the BMC, seeing as the dealer is a long way away.
ReplyDeletestarted off just looking for some parts for the spare SCOTT frame i have...you know how it goes... start looking for some parts end up buying something non related! With the wheels I have all three would end up under 8kg too which is a bonus.
ReplyDeleteWhat's with that. If it is a BMC, can you take it into a BMC dealer? I am pretty sure the likes of Cannondale you can, no matter where you purchased?
ReplyDeleteA bike under 8kg is a big difference. For that matter a rider under 80kg would be nice as well.
None of them are fall over yourself great deals. The BMC is light but you'd be on the road at about 8.5-9kg anyway. although wheels and tires and saddle changed to sensible products would shave a further 600gm'ish.
ReplyDeleteisn't rival = 105ish.
Better off sourcing just a frame at <$1400 and building from there.
The first GIANT is 8kg and $2k , the second 7.8 and $2.2k. There are no better deals... a quiet week and work means lots of research!
ReplyDeleteGiants are not even 20% off. Thnat's the starting discount for current stock sell out. I also wonder whether swapping the 105 parts helped increase margin when they discounted. Bottom line is I think your Scott is heaps better. Group set, wheels.
ReplyDeleteNope, you can't have it. Love to agree but can't. They are both lighter/same as my SCOTT with its present configuration. If I put my wheels on the GIANT (either) they would drop 250grams again). Where they both beat my SCOTT is frame/fork weight. Can't overcome that easily. They both have good aggressive geometry too.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, the point I was making is, they are the best two bikes I could find NEW for that money across all manufacturers. Plus, its hard for them to discount more because of the wholesale price. Which is why GIANT is now opening its own shops around Australia.
http://www.bikeexchange.com.au/bikes/show/100247243-scott-speedster-s10
ReplyDeletewith my wheels/pedals on/bottle cages/computer my bike weighs 8.6, but otherwise this is my spec
Saw the tcr composite in bike shop with Ultegra/105 calipers and the r1900 wheels (that lok good actually) @$2899.
ReplyDeleteDidn't double check the frame but from your picture I thought they looked like Giants sloping compact which I always thought was less agressive.
If the bikes for you then STOP! spend $2000 on a frame upgrade and swap components over...simple.
They are freely available, TCR Comp 1 for $2199 and TCR Comp 2 for $1699.
ReplyDeleteGet serious
ReplyDeletehttp://www.totalcycling.com/index.php/product/parts_accessories/frames_cervelo/FR_CERVELO_S1.html
http://www.totalcycling.com/index.php/product/parts_accessories/frames_cinelli/FR_ESTRADA.html
http://www.totalcycling.com/index.php/product/parts_accessories/frames_time/FR_TIME_SPEEDER_S.html
http://www.totalcycling.com/index.php/product/parts_accessories/frames_colnago/FR_C50_STBL_56.html
the 2010 bmc racemaster frame is down to $1200 on competitive cyclist, pretty cheap if have parts to swap over
ReplyDeleteso that's the same plastic in the same geometry but without any bits attached, and you want to be taken seriously? your a brand victim
ReplyDeletebetter bet
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=PRODUCT&PRODUCT.ID=9082
at least you can ride it out of the box
and
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=PRODUCT&PRODUCT.ID=9083
for 800 more you get to ride it immediately
and who needs a Cervelo S1
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=PRODUCT&PRODUCT.ID=8632
so as you can see
the GIANTS still make sense
its just the brand snobbery you can't climb over isn't it?
not that i would ever buy one!
OK.
ReplyDeleteThe TCR advanced team (if that's what it's still called) is a different carbon composite to the lower levels. They don't get into detail because if you're after a <$3000 bike this is more information than you need.
George's formulae:
<$1,500 road bike = you ride with the kids. keep the bike under 60km/hr. No rain. Tolerance is flat sealed roads...no mild bumps or pot holes as your 3kg wheels will buckle easily. Don't upgrade, buy a new bike.
$2,000<$4,000 = I want a carbon or steel (al) frame. I shouldn't get speed wobbles going over 60km/hr down a hill and it is reasonable to spend money upgrading parts.
$4k<$8k = I should consider the type of carbon, resin and finish. The better wheels and components will give less incremental improvement but it will be noticable. I am only a little off top gear and may have some parts that are. I should notice better power transfer in stiffness of frame, wheels and maybe components. My lateral flex - even with the help of a heavy foot - won't be significant. I don't have parts rusting when I ride in the wet.
>$8k I have a specific technology in the size, variable thickness and method of blowing the carbon tubing. My resin is minimised but high quality and finished perfectly. My components maximise performance to weight (notice I didn't say they were the lightest). My moving parts are smoother than anything else I've had and I can afford to spend extra $'000 on negligible improvement in my own ability. If my bike doesn't look expensive I'm an idiot.
Summary, performance and weight aren't relevant for the $2k'ish market because you can't see them as clearly as the sticker on the side of the frame. Arguably, riding a brand that you think is superior (whatever that may be) can have a positive effect on your performance.
These views are subject to change and do not reflect the actions of their author. For updates on the world according to the mechanic visit backbytenthirty.blogspot.com
When you read the cycling mags and see the tests on the bikes, the cost of the bike doesn't reflect in amount of movement in the frame. In fact, if that was your single criteria you'd be riding a MOOTs or a BAUM.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with your theory is that if you placed Pinarello stickers on a GIANT the price would increase dramatically, and as with most bikes the performance increase relative to cost increase is poor. We are not talking about new design/technology either. The basic frame shape hasn't altered much. The material technology is common too all, and mostly built in Taiwan, often inside the same bloody factories.
Anyone spending more than $4k at the level we are riding at is delusional or simply wants something specific which bears no relation to their talent. The only thing that has a positive effect on your performance is training. A BMC with 105 or a GIANT with 105 and 3 grand cheaper is going to perform just as well.
Its going to be interesting to see how GIANT goes opening GIANT stores instead of using dealers.
I enjoyed the Mechanics formulae.
ReplyDeleteYes Spanglish, I can justify that anyone spending more then $4k at our level is delusional. I have spent more then that and yes it bears no relationship to my talent.
But, have you ridden one of these $8k + bikes?
Yes they all have similar geometry but they are poles apart!
Go and try one, then re post.
Also, get hold of some tubulars for the magic carpet ride.
Yes we may all be influenced by branding, but these brands have a stigma for a reason.
I, like you work hard so why not have some nice things?
I have stopped working hard, I'm blogging!
ReplyDeleteYou've gone off the subject. The subject is looking at the quality and value of an unpopular but never-the-less well built bike at $2.2k or less against other brands with the same spec. If you going up the price you can again buy a TCR A SL RABOBANK for $5.5k. Face up, if two bikes used by PRO's have the same running gear but are 2/3k apart or more in price, what are you (Mr Recreational Cyclist) getting out of it other than a shafting?
You have to understand, I am not pro GIANT nor do I have one, but paying an Italian 3 grand more to paint my Taiwanese frame for me is down right fucking dumb.
Your right I have strayed.
ReplyDeleteValue for money. The Oppy. There said it. They are very good.
But its bad enough that I am slow and overweight without being on a Malvern Star!
OOOhhh, I know. Designed by a very well respected frame designer. The guy at work has a friend that has one and says its as good as anything he has ridden... its just the name isn't it. Also, i know for a fact Malvern Star sold all their stock this year.
ReplyDeleteI have ridden a Look KG481 and a Giant Defy Advanced 0. The Look had Campag on it, was no better/worse than Shimano, is better looking but again you pay too much more for it. The Giant was very light, Sleepyhead uses one, rode very well BUT at over 5k new was it 4 times better than my Scott. NO. Better, different, lets face it, less weight (you/the bike) its a no brainer. All these bikes are stiff.
By the way - Pinarello frame movement BB 0.35/ST 0.43, Koga BB 0.38/ST 0.28 $16,000 v $3,800.
Its marketing and sales over common sense. People buy into it like religion. Once your suckered in you have to believe or admit you were a fool.
As for geometry, i overlaid some pics last week, they were all the same. So the frame comes down to build/strength areas and type of manufacturing. But its hardly a secret, they are all building the same stuff using the same materials, often in the same factory.
So, in conclusion: if you buy on spec you get the best deal and ignore the name, if you buy because you want something else just say so and don't bleat about delusional attributes you read in a mag.
Let me tell you, I have used Des's old OCR3 all 300 dollars worth, sometimes no gears wreck on the SKCC ride, and I have done the same ride on the steel 10 kilo LeMond too. Which is roughly the quality of the bike he used when he won the Tour!
And here is another bike he raced a tour on:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110648527497&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Quoting George
ReplyDelete"My components maximise performance to weight (notice I didn't say they were the lightest)."
Are you talking about Campag?
http://www.totalcycling.com/index.php/component-weights.html
ReplyDeletehttp://www.totalcycling.com/index.php/product/parts_accessories/groupsets_road/GR_REC_2011.html
http://www.totalcycling.com/index.php/product/parts_accessories/groupsets_road/GR_7900.html
bit of weight saving there, but note its not in the moving parts its in the shifters, there is no rotating mass benefit at all
Had a quick look. Didn't see red anywhere?
ReplyDeleteThey are ligther still.
If your looking at rotating mass. Look wheels then at your shoes/pedals.
A low end heavy bike with lighter wheels would be better then a higher end with good componetry and heavy wheels.
I see it now.. the new CERVELO TORPEDO. In fact, I think i am right in saying the greatest obstacle to overcome in cycling is the aerodynamics of the rider.
ReplyDeleteSRAM RED is the bottom table, try not to get on my nerves!
DIY KIT
Crankset 585 (csr)
BB Cups 45 (csr)
Shift Lever 280 (sr)
Rear Derailleur 153 (sr)
Front Derailleur 58 (sr)
Chain 239 (csr)
Cassette 155 (sr)
Brake Calipers 265 (sr)
total 1780
add SCOTT plasma frame, Soul wheelset, etc talking bout a <6kg bike!
WHICH MEANS MORE DONUTS!!!
Better add that up again.
ReplyDeleteUnder 6kg, not getting on your nerves but your showing your ignorance. haha
As usual, that makes no sense.
ReplyDeleteNow you are getting on my nerves.
6kg for the Scott? Very hard to get a bike under 6kg unless the wheels are under 1kg.
ReplyDeleteYou need to look at
Bars & Tape
Stem
Saddle and Post
Pedals are handy
Tires and Tubes
Cables for Shifters and Brakes
1780, plus Plasma frame, SLR C64 - 83.6/ Schmolke - 98/ 303 tubular - 1032/Diamante Pro Light 2x175/ Extralite - 82/ couple of tubes - 130/ EC90 Composite 180/
ReplyDeletecome on make an effort
Ok in that case yes. This is a wish list? And expensive
ReplyDeleteI thought when you said Scott frame you meant your exisitng frame. You also mentioned Soul wheels?
Scott Plasma frame. Thought thats a time trial bike?
Once again we are talking two different things. We got there in the end.
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/articles.php?ID=72
ReplyDeleteHere is a Scott for you.
And the Extreme
ReplyDeletehttp://weightweenies.starbike.com/articles.php?ID=21
back a step
ReplyDeleteCR1 Team Issue hows that?
I'll take the SCOTT.
Money is no object. Here you go, I am going to put the cash on the dash first, I give us 3-5 years tops before we are a global basket case. You have China now consuming as the world's 2nd largest economy in direct competition with the West for all resources. India just behind. You have a growing population of young poor people in OPEC countries.
The latest in a long line of people trying to warn us but getting ignored:
www.theage.com.au/business/arab-countries-must-ring-in-changes--and-quickly-20110217-1ay90.html
SPEND SPEND SPEND for tomorrow it will be worthless!
Dude its POETS day.
ReplyDeleteHave a beer.
I'm off for a ride.
don't you mean:
ReplyDeleteI'll have a beer
Get onto my rear
There's no more to hide
I'm off for a ride.
Fucking hippies!
Back two steps CR1 Team issue.
ReplyDeleteHave a read. It has been Tuned all over the place.
The term "tuned" means these strange little people pull the covers off things like shifters and drill hiles in them, they replace bolts and pulleys with titanium parts etc.
I am not sure they would actually want to ride these bikes. Great going up hill but down!!?
Fuckin Pom's with their rhyming slang!
ReplyDeleteHave a wonderful weekend.
Guys for what its worth, picked up my new 2 wheeled thing last week and the thing is like riding a weightless rubber band between the legs? In summary having come from 25 years riding Campag and Euro/USA Frames now a true convert to Sram Red on an Asian Carbon thing, ohh at least the bits that licks and contacts the bitumen is still Euro!
ReplyDeletePS> Have you guys read my email/blog under BBTT Rides regarding this Sunday's Sass Ride?
What no Cannondale any more? What do you have now?
ReplyDeleteCipo rides a GIANT.
ReplyDelete^Go back to top^